Interview with Sabrina Baker-Bouie

              Special Collections
Public Spaces in Miami: An Oral History Project
Interview with Sabrina Baker-Bouie
Miami, Florida, June 18th, 1999
Intervew IPH-0033
Interviewed by Aldo Regalado
Recorded by Aldo Regalado
Summary: The interview with Sabrina Baker-Bouie was conducted in June 1999. Ms. Baker-Bouie is a graduate of the Tuskegee Institute, in Alabama, where she received a B.S. in Political Science. She also holds a Master’s degree in Public Administration from Florida International University. Ms. Baker-Bouie served as program director of the City of Miami’s Department of Development as well Program Director for Miami Dade Community College’s Neighborhood Transformation Project for the Overtown area.
This interview forms part of the Institute for Public History (IPH) Oral History Collection, directed by Professor Greg Bush from the History Department and curated by the University of Miami Libraries Special Collections.
Copyright to this interview lies with the University of Miami. The interview recordings or transcript may not be reproduced, retransmitted, published, distributed, or broadcast without the permission of the Special Collections. For information about obtaining copies or to request permission to publish any part of this interview, please contact Special Collections at asc@miami.edu.
1300 Memorial Drive, Coral Gables, FL 33124-0320 * 305-284-3580 * 305-284-4901 fax
Sabrina Baker-Bouie
June 18, 1999
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Aldo Regalado: This is Aldo Regalado interviewing Mrs. Sabrina Baker-Bouie at her TACOLCY office. The date is June 18, 1999, and we are beginning the interview at 9:13 AM. The focus of this interview will be Mrs. Baker-Bouie’s recollections of her neighborhood experiences and her reflections of public space issues in Miami. [recorder is turned off and then back on] Okay, so, I guess we can start with when and where you were born.
Sabrina Baker-Bouie: I was born in St. Augustine, Florida, on March 11, 1959. Do you want me to continue?
AR: What did you--. Were you raised there? Did you--?
SB: No.
AR: Where--Where did you move to--? Where did you move to and when?
SB: My dad was in school at Florida Normal, it was called at the time. And when he finished school we moved to Sanford, Florida, which is my mother’s hometown. And we--we stayed there until about 1968, and then we moved to Miami. So, part of my life was growing up in a small town right outside of Orlando, and then the other part was—the majority of it—was here in Miami.
AR: Okay, where did you live in Miami?
SB: We lived in the Carol City area. Grew up going to the public schools in that area, Miami Gardens Elementary, Carol City Junior High it was called, and then Carol City Senior High.
AR: Did you have any brothers or sisters who would be--?
SB: I have all sisters--.
AR: All sisters?
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SB: And they’re four sisters. Three of the sisters have lived with me the whole time. I have an older sister that lived with her mother. My father had a child before he and my mother met.
AR: How would you describe your siblings, your sisters? How did you get along with them and just--?
SB: We did the normal [chuckles] fighting, but we were all very close. I’m the oldest of the sisters that have lived together. So, I kind of was the one who was in charge of the--of the family when the parents were away. So I’m more the motherly one of the younger three.
AR: How about your parents? What did they do for a living? And--and, yeah--. And how did you--. How did you relate with your parents?
SB: Before we moved to Miami, both my parents were teachers in the public school system in Sanford. Then we-- we moved because my father got a job with Florida Morgan College when it was moving to Miami as a Director of Alumni Affairs. My mother taught reading for a while at the college -- she's a reading specialist -- and she later became the director of Upward Bound, still at Florida Morgan College. They’ve since moved on. My father, later was in the public school system in Dade County and started out as a visiting teacher and retired as a community school principal for Northwestern. My mother is now the director of the Miami-Dade Chamber of Commerce. After leaving Florida Morgan, she was the director of the United Negro College Fund for a while. And then--then she left the job with the Miami-Dade Chamber. She’s still working.
AR: Would you describe your childhood as a happy one?
SB: Oh, yeah.
AR: Yeah?
SB: We did a lot of things together, a lot of family Sunday afternoon trips, a lot of--. There was a lot of encouragement in the house for us in terms of education, in terms of love and support. So, a very happy childhood. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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AR: Okay, just a sense of where you are now. Are you married? Do you have kids? Children?
SB: I am a widow. I have two children, ages six and eleven--a boy and a girl. The boy is older.
AR: [laughs] Okay. Yeah. All right. And--. And could you give me a sense of your--of your--of your work life, what you’ve--well of your education, and then your-- what you’ve done for a living since then?
SB: After finishing from Carol City I went to college in Alabama, Tuskegee Institute. Received a four-year degree, a B.S. degree in political science. I came back to Miami, got a job with the City of Miami in the planning department as a planning intern. About the same time, I enrolled in FIU. I got a master’s in public administration. I worked for the City of Miami for eleven years. Started out as a citizen planning intern, moved up to a position of an administrative assistant, primarily assigned to the Overtown area, and a redevelopment project called Southeast Overtown Park West. The department was later merged into the Department of Development, and I became a Program--I think it was called Program Director, I can’t remember the exact title now. And that was assigned to, not just Overtown, but developing RFP’s for all open spaces that the City of Miami owned, and in some cases acquiring land for the City of Miami for development projects. I left the City of Miami and went to work for Miami-Dade Community College on--as the program director of a new project, Neighborhood Transformation in the Overtown Area. Then I left Miami-Dade Community College and came here to Bellafonte TACOLCY Center, where I am the executive director.
AR: And, you mentioned purchasing lands for--for development and then the other new thing. What--? Could you elaborate on what exactly, you know, I guess the mission of your jobs was and--and, well yeah, just--?
SB: One of the biggest projects was purchasing land in the Overtown area, the land closest to the Arena. This was long before the Arena was there. In fact, the land the Arena is on is one of the parcels that we purchased. We--. During the time, the property from Fifth Street up until Eighth Street, Second Avenue to Third Avenue in Overtown, as well as a couple of blocks just Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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east of Second Avenue, was purchased for a housing development project. And the major feature of the project was to provide opportunities for folks to come back to the downtown area. And therefore, there would be some units set aside for those persons who were low-income, who wanted to remain in the area. So we purchased homes and buildings, relocated residents to other parts of the neighborhood if they wanted, or--. In fact, they had opportunity to go wherever they wanted to. They received a relocation payment and a moving stipend. The land just north of the arena where there are two apartment buildings is called Park West. And that particular area was also purchased by the City of Miami. There’s some land that was purchased by the City of Miami in what is called the Overtown Historic District, which is between Eighth Street and Tenth Street and Second and Third Avenues. There was an additional land that was purchased just north of ( ), which is on Second Avenue right near Eighth Street. And that was developed as a plaza, an open space for people to come and relax. It was supposed to be a space that would connect, eventually, folks from Overtown all the way over to Biscayne Bay. It was supposed to be a unique paving pattern that kind of just brought you from the Overtown area without any interruption into what is called Park West, but it could take you all the way over to Biscayne Bay. The other part of the project was RFP’s--putting out RFP’s for developers to come in and then develop other public spaces in terms of, um--. We had a RFP out for the Marine Stadium at one time, to develop that area. The Marine Stadium had fallen into disrepair, so someone who could take over and restore the stadium, as well as have some shops and restaurants. That kind of went from the Marine Stadium to the Rusty Pelican. The controversial Virginia Key RFP was just starting. The part that I had was the space--not where the beach is, but the space directly across from Marine Stadium--to have that be developed as a nature walking center, similar to what you see in the Everglades, with wooden sidewalks that kind of go out into the Everglades and you can, you’ll see the birds and other kinds of marine and bird life in that particular area, as well as get an educational ( ) to the community. So that's--that was the primary function. I think I also had Bicentennial Park, which we were still trying to decide what to--what to do with at the time. And then the Neighborhood Transformation Project was clearly very different from my role at the City of Miami, because this particular project was working with the residents of Overtown, so that they could begin to tell us what they wanted for their lives: how they wanted their neighborhoods to be shaped, what they felt was important, you know, versus what was not important. And so it was a lot of focus group meetings with residents: learning a lot about the Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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history of Overtown, learning a lot about the desires and wishes of residents of Overtown, and then trying to package what the residents wanted with funding and the willingness of others to make it happen. The program, however, ended. It was a-- it was a pet project of Dr. McKay when he was at Miami-Dade Community College and Dr. Tessa Pollock, who was at the medical center campus. And upon their departure, the program ended with the new president, who thought it would be better suited as a City of Miami project. The City of Miami--when it left the college, I left to come here--the City of Miami kept the project for a while. And then they later, I guess disbanded it.
AR: Well that brings up a lot of points. First, on the open-space, closed-space issues, the Marine Stadium, the Park West, and all of that. Were you--. Did--. Were these initiatives successful? In what ways? And, yeah--. How would you measure the success of those initiatives?
SB: In terms of the original intent, I would say they were not successful--.
AR: Could you be specific?
SB: The original intent of the Overtown Park West Project was to go from Fifth Street all the way up to I-395. The program, right now, has one development that is partially completed in the Overtown area, which is Pontiana Village. The--the pedestrian open space is only one block. Rather than going from Third Avenue to Biscayne Boulevard, it’s only between the Metrorail station and Second Avenue. The remaining blocks in Overtown are now--two or three of them are used for parking for the Arena. The remaining block is vacant and fenced-in and not always maintained. So in terms of the initial drawings for a lot of the developers that had planned to do those sites, have either gone out of business or are no longer interested. The city put out another RFP, some time later, for another developer, but the development is not under way. On the Park West side, the arena was not the original intent for that particular space. But the plan was later modified to include the arena since the city owned the land. So in many respects, in terms of the full intent of the project, no, it was not successful. Some things happened. Some development has taken place. There--there is some rental property on a couple of the lots. And like I said, Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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there is some--what do you call it-- home ownership on the other lot. The space just north of the Lyric Theater which was purchased is going to be turned over for the development of the Lyric Theater. But a lot of this land was purchased many, many years ago, and still, in many cases, it’s either vacant or the development’s partially finished.
AR: What would you say were the biggest obstacles in terms of meeting the provisions--the original provisions?
SB: Money.
AR: Money?
SB: Money was the biggest issue. The full plan really called for these initial so-called pilot projects to kind of spur the interest of folks and then development would kind of just take off from there. But it has not generated that interest yet for others to want to come in and do it. Secondly, the whole cost of construction and developing the property--. The interest has not--has not been like a windfall. You know, it’s still pioneer, there are still people who are being pioneers in a market, are coming into a low-income neighborhood, and a neighborhood which has a lot of history, both negative and positive. The negative, which is more prevalent in folks’ minds right now, is--is what is keeping a lot of people from wanting to move back to Overtown. Safety is a big concern. So the developer who has the home ownership has problems selling those units, although the units were considered to be affordable and, you know, you’re right next to Metrorail, and you’re near downtown, and you’re near the expressway. And so all of the amenities that we've grown accustomed to in the suburbs were all there in terms of access, but you’re still dealing with the surrounding community, which is not necessarily, in terms of looking out your window, you know, picturesque. So, that--that had been very slow. And then the whole--the whole idea of lending--the lending institutions willing to take the risk on such developments has not been there. The city subsidized a lot of it at first, but the money can’t stay tied up forever in terms of subsidies hoping things would work. Some private funding would have to--to be included, with the public subsidies. And the private funding was just not there.
Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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AR: So--so, the--Obviously lack of interest from these financial--financial and business interests. What would you say was the feedback from the community in terms of these initiatives? Was there--? You know, were they--were they indifferent? Disinterested? Or was the community aware and fully behind these initiatives?
SB: No, the community was not necessarily behind it. Initially, the community thought it was a good idea. But at that time the community thought that they would be able to move into some of those units. When the first set of home ownership units at Pontiana Village got underway, clearly those units were not affordable to Overtown families. For working folks downtown, they were very affordable. I think the prices start out at 62,000 dollars. When you think in terms of the people that we had already relocated from those units, from that area, many of those people had large families when they were already living in substandard housing. And so to them, to be able to afford a 62,000 dollar one-bedroom unit didn’t make sense to them. And the three-bedroom units were way outside of their--their range. And at that time folks started to realize that they weren’t going to be able to move back into the area that they had lived in for a long time. They weren’t going to be able to afford those units. So their lifestyle was not really getting ready to change, but that most of the people that would be in those units were people who came from other neighborhoods. So they were--they weren’t like, oh, this is so exciting. But then some people saw it as an opportunity for growth. Some in the neighborhood thought, well, there’ll be a different income level in this community, and the neighborhood will get more respect. But pretty much now you have separate communities, you know. The folks who are in the home ownership, that’s almost a community by itself. There’s not a lot of reaching out to the rest of the Overtown neighborhood. So, you--. There--there’s no connection.
AR: How about in terms of the--of the public space initiatives, like the, you know, the scenic walkways and all of that? Was that--Was that dealt with by the public or by the community or did they mostly concentrate on housing aspect of it or--?
SB: Well, the community voted on the whole plan.
AR: As a--?
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SB: As a whole package. And the whole plan was from Fifth Street to I-395. The initial development would be a mixture of home ownership and rental. As you got further into Overtown, like about Eleventh Street, it would be a lot of in-fill housing on vacant lots, as well as some rehab of existing structures. So it was supposed to be a neighborhood that was a combination of things. You can go from upscale to--to moderately priced to some scattered low income units. Then there was to be a mixture of open spaces, as well as some commercial and retail activity to support this new community. The support services were never there. So many of the residents that lived in these new housing units, while there was a major grocery store--not major, but major in terms of the neighborhood, right on Third Avenue and Fourteenth Street--people who live in the new housing travel outside of Overtown to do grocery shopping. They don’t use the neighborhood one.
AR: Why’s that?
SB: Well, the location of this particular store is kind of like deep into the Overtown area, and so there’s some apprehension about it. Then--then there was some concern about the quality of the products in the store, and then the prices.
AR: Do you think--do you think that the concerns are reasonable? Or do you think that they're--that they’re unfounded?
SB: No, they’re reasonable. Because I worked with the Overtown neighborhood and got to know the people in the street, going to the store was not a big ordeal for me. But the store is not in a location that would make you feel comfortable. It’s right on the other side of an expressway. So if you weren’t really going to the grocery store, you wouldn’t know it was there. I have purchased items out of the grocery store on occasion, and the items are slightly higher than what I would have paid at Winn-Dixie. They might be a little bit less than what you might pay at Publix. But in comparison to--to some of the major chains, the prices are slightly higher. Now in terms of the products, they have all of the same products that you find in those grocery stores. Those--that particular grocery store seems to serve more of the residents that are on like Eleventh Street and higher in terms of Overtown. But--. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
June 18, 1999
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AR: What’s the name of the store by the way, now that you mention it?
SB: [pause] I’ll think of it. [laughing] I think it’s Crown, Crown Grocery store.
AR: How about the issue of-of crime in the neighborhood? Would you say that that is fairly or unfairly portrayed in the media and--?
SB: Crime does exist in Overtown. But I think they’ve gotten some really bad publicity. Unfortunately, anything that happens in the surrounding neighborhood--. There've been times when I’ve been at home listening to the news and they’ll talk about a crime incident in Overtown. And when they give the location, it’s either near the Omni, it might be somewhere near Biscayne Boulevard, which is not Overtown. Overtown boundaries, the eastern boundary is F and C railroad tracks. So everything over by the school board offices and the Omni area is not Overtown. But that’s the address that they use. There’s been a couple of times when something has happened not too far from Jackson, and they said Overtown. And then the western boundary is Seventh Avenue, so clearly it wasn’t--wasn’t Overtown. And then the area just north of Overtown, it’s the same thing, you know, it’s designated as Overtown. Overtown has its fair share of--of crime. Primarily most of the crime is drug-related incidents; there’s some domestic violence incidents, but we’ve worked very closely with the police. And dealing with the statistics for Overtown, Overtown’s crime rate was lower than Little Havana. But it’s not publicized that way. So, it seems to me to have gotten a bad break in terms of media making the portrayal of the neighborhood be far worse than what it is. I’ve heard them talk about the schools and how people don’t care. And I’ve worked with so many people in Overtown who are concerned about the safety of the kids, who hate the garbage all over the place, who have on more than one occasion asked the city and the county--because many of them, most of vacant lots in Overtown are owned by the city and the county, which most people don’t know. And those lots are overcrowded and filled with garbage. And so the residents of Overtown have asked both the city and the county, clean up your own mess, and that would make the neighborhood look a whole lot better. But a lot of those cries have been unheard.
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AR: Why is that? Why the--. Why the neglect, do you think, in your opinion?
SB: Well, one--. There’s probably a couple of reasons. One is voting. I think people in Overtown are starting to realize that they have to vote. The politicians have to see them as a strong base of contention. So as decisions are being made, you know, they have some respect for that neighborhood, because they know that that neighborhood could either keep them in office or put them out of office. Secondly, Overtown right now is primarily a rental community. The home own--the property owners live not in Overtown. And so, in terms of the taxes for the city, it’s not necessarily from the property taxes of folks who live there. It’s from folks who, you know, might be in New York City. And then there’s just a lack of consistency. You know, the people in Overtown scream and shout today, and then after about a month or so they--they feel beaten and like nothing’s going to happen, and so they give up. You have to be consistent. It’s really the old adage that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. You have to constantly be squeaky, but you got to be very consistent with your message.
AR: How did, with the NTP--I guess the--the project, going in and asking the residents who returned what they want, working with the residents who returned, what they want--? Could you characterize their concerns and their more salient demands or requests that they made a point of action?
SB: Well, when we first started the project, we had to listen to more of the--the anger from the residents about what had been done to them. The residents were very angry about the expressway that chopped up their neighborhood. They were very angry about the Metrorail that--that further chopped up their neighborhood. And so we spent quite a bit of time listening to--to those voices of anger at first. They even went back to, I guess, it must have been the early sixties or seventies, at a time when there--there was a project called Urban Renewal that came through and bought up a lot of land from folks and relocated them and told them that a new development was coming. And that land is still vacant now, and the new development has not come. After we got through that, then they started to talk about what they wanted for their community. And a lot of it was just some equality. They wanted to have regular trash pickups. They wanted to not be harassed by police. They wanted the police to remove the criminals from the community, Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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because they felt that the police knew who they were and what they were doing. They wanted code enforcement. They felt that the city was allowing these buildings to just fall apart. They wanted better schools and better school opportunities for their children. They wanted to have safe places for their children to play. They wanted the parks to be safe and not be a place for drug deals. They wanted activities in the park. They said that they had very nice parks, but they didn’t have a lot of activities, structured activities, in the parks. And they wanted it to look better. They wanted to bring some businesses there. There were certain things that they--they--. For one, the bank was one of the results of this process, because they felt that they shouldn’t have to go outside of their neighborhood for everything, that some of the stuff should be in their neighborhood. Once in a while they said they simply wanted some respect. They wanted to be treated fairly and they just wanted some respect.
AR: Yeah. And--and--. How--how successful--. Well, you’ve mentioned basically the program fell apart after passing from the university to--to the city. Do you think--? [Tape cuts off mid question]
[END OF SIDE 1]
[START OF SIDE 2]
AR: This is Aldo Regalado continuing the June 18 interview--June 18, 1999, interview with Mrs. Sabrina Baker-Bouie at her TACOLCY office. This time is 9:57 and we are beginning side two of tape one. Okay, so I had just asked you what strides you think the project made in terms of--before--before running--coming to a halt--in terms of addressing some of these things in the community.
SB: One of the things that came about as part of this process was the development of a merchants’ alliance, and that component is still in place today. The other was some beautification projects. There’s a beautification project that is right along the expressway along Fourteenth Street. That was a result of--of this particular program. Under the I-95-- I-395 expressway, in that document you’ll see a program that was designed by the residents that will call for that area to be lightened up for one, the pillars to be painted with murals depicting the Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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history of African- and Caribbean-Americans. That program is still--. It’s in the--the--. The Department of Transportation decided they liked that one and that they wanted to do it. And so they set aside some planning grant money last year to get the program going. And this year, or next year I believe it is, they’re supposed to set aside some money for construction of that particular program. There were a couple of health projects that we participated in. One was called Growing Up Healthy with the Ann-Marie Atkin Clinic that has been taken on by Leonard Tekell, who would also be a good person for you to talk to. And he has kind of resurrected that project, working in conjunction with a Dr. Glade out of the University of Miami. And so some aspects of the process, in terms of residents participating and being involved in what goes on in their neighborhood, is still happening. We used to do a project called the Marketplace in that open space I talked to you about closest to the Lyric Theater, where once a month we would ask merchants to--we would put booths up and ask the merchants to come and show their wares, have music and food and activities for the kids. And so it became like a town center party of sorts. And so as I understand it, there have--there’ve been a couple of attempts to do that, but there’ve also been a number of residents who’ve asked that that be done again. And, so some aspects of it is--is still kind of hanging out there. What it needs is some individual or individuals to kind of pull everything back together. But the thought is still very prevalent in the minds of the residents.
AR: You mentioned these kind of sense of priorities--of opportunities for the community to come together in--in space, in a public space like that. Do you, can you recall, or are you aware of any other similar types of community gatherings, or events, festivals, or that sort of thing where this type of--of coming together can take place?
SB: I am told that years ago, many, many years ago, there used to be parades. In fact, I was told that the Orange Blossom Parade used to come through Overtown. But other than--than that particular parade, I’m not familiar with any other festival or event like that. Now the Black Archives annually holds a Jazz in the Park on the grounds right next to the Lyric Theater, which is really right in the same area where we did the Marketplace. I’m not real sure how well that is supported by the residents. But they bring some jazz musicians there and folks can sit out and listen to the music. That area has also being used as the location for the Heat when they do their Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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Thanksgiving turkey distribution. And in fact, we worked--when I was with Overtown () we worked with the Heat on the very first one of those that had activities for the kids, as well as the players coming out and--and giving out the turkeys. Now, I don’t know if they still quite do it that way with the big festival part of it, but I know the residents really enjoy just the whole ability to be dancing. We have the DJs out, and on the part of the plaza there people will be out dancing and--and then the kids will be in the grassy area running and playing and--. Then you still have the merchants along the sidewalk area of the plaza with booths on both sides, just distributing whatever they sold in their stores normally, as well as some of the restaurant vendors will be cooking. And so you had the whole flavor of these--these wonderful dishes of--of a lot of them were either soul food dishes or Caribbean dishes. Then there was one vendor that had cakes, all different kinds of cakes there. So it was an opportunity for people to get out and do something different, but still an opportunity for merchants to make some money. So we all--we had a two-fold process.
AR: Do you think--. So would you say currently that that type of opportunity is few and far in between?
SB: Oh yeah.
AR: Yeah?
SB: There’ve been a couple of cases--Barbara Waite would be another person for you to talk to from the City of Miami--what Barbara has gone in and done a few activities in the park. Right now she’s trying to put together plays in the park; Theater in the Park is the name of it, where people would come together. There’s a stage at Gibson Park, and they would do plays there. Now we’ve done an Easter egg hunt at Gibson Park, and we did--I can’t remember the name of the activity--but we also did--oh, I know what it was--a Kwanza activity in--in Gibson Park. And we had the giant slide and some rides for the kids and music and the story of Kwanza and food in the park. So we try to use--we try to utilize existing open spaces, because Overtown has a lot of wonderful open--open space, and a lot of it is not utilized by the residents of Overtown.
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AR: Why not? Why not utilize, do you think? What are the barriers to that?
SB: Um, structure.
AR: What was that?
SB: Structure. There’s not a lot of structure.
AR: In terms of--?
SB: Well, for example, the parks are staffed during the week, but on the weekends there’s not really staff in the park. And during football season the residents of Overtown use it because they have Optimist Football. And so any given time the park--Gibson Park especially--is filled with people during football season, utilizing the park.
AR: And so it was what football?
SB: They have Optimist.
AR: Optimist?
AR: Yeah, they have their own Optimist League in Overtown. So they utilize the park for--for games, for home games. Now occasionally a resident might use it for a birthday party for a child. But pretty much in the spring, people from other neighborhoods come in and use it for baseball. Baseball is not like a real hot sport in Overtown, and at that time most of the residents will be using the park for basketball. So the--the bigger spaces are not being utilized and that--. I guess it’s hot, and a lot of those spaces are not well shaded as well.
AR: So, lack of shading, you say lack of staffing in terms of park personnel--?
SB: On the weekends.
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AR: On weekends.
SB: Now during the week it’s used, because many of the parks have after school programs. And so the kids are in the park in the afternoon doing tutorial, and they’ll be playing some games. And during the summer it’s crowded because the pools are open, and a lot of kids are playing in the park.
AR: So--so they’re relatively important in terms of looking at any--. And yet you say that they’re underutilized.
SB: There could be more activities. You know, if you--if you go into an area like Miami Lakes, there are year-round sports activities operating out of those parks. Those parks are staffed for Saturday and Sunday events. There’s soccer going on during soccer season. There’s baseball going on with a league during--during baseball season. There’s not a baseball league in Overtown. There’s football going on during football season. Then there’s basketball. So year-round there is--there is staffed sporting events which children have been recruited to participate in or have volunteered or however gotten in. But any Saturday or Sunday in Miami Lakes--and I’ve passed them periodically--there is an activity going on. Now the Optimist in Overtown is not necessarily--it’s not a city staff. It’s an independent group of folks, and they only operate, at this point, football. There’s not another league for baseball. So there’s no structure at that point for organized sport--sporting activities.
AR: And--. And I assume that what impedes the formation of that again is probably tax-based, the neglect and, the same issues, funding--.
SB: Funding, yeah.
AR: You mentioned--. You mentioned crime taking place in the parks. You mentioned crime--the parks being used for drug deals.
SB: Uh-huh. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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AR: Do you think--. Is crime, as well, a prevalent problem in parks--in these unattended parks? If so, you know, how much does that play in terms of not--of preventing people from using the park?
SB: It plays a big part. There’s a park in Overtown right underneath the expressway at Tenth Street--I think it’s Range Park--which is rarely used by Overtown residents. And it’s largely because of the kind of negative activity that goes on in the park. There are quite a few homeless that have made that park home. There is some drug activity that goes in that park. And then, I guess, because of where it is situated, there’s not a lot of light. So it’s a very dark park. At one point there were basketball goals underneath there, and it’s this--was some green space underneath there. But in all of the years that I’ve worked in that particular community, I’ve never, ever noticed that park being utilized in some very productive way. There’ve been some occasions on the weekend where somebody might come put out a big stereo system and play music, but it’s still not with a--a crowd of--of residents there. You might have a few people drinking and--and playing cards or something, and so the music is for their personal entertainment. But it’s not a well-utilized park. Then you have a couple of--I think they might have been removed since then--. There were a couple of little spaces in between buildings that the city made into these little mini-parks, they called them. And, there used to be one on Second Avenue right near Eleventh Street, there was a mini-park, I don’t even know if it had a name, mini-park number something, and it had benches there. But primarily it became a spot for people who wanted to sit in the park and drink. So, it was again not a healthy park activity. It was, you know, a spot where a bunch of vagrants or other derelict kind of folks set up camp. And so it was their--their park. And so those kinds of open spaces in Overtown were not good open spaces. And then you have something like Gibson Park, Williams Park, and Dorsey Park. All three of those parks have baseball fields for one. And you have to think about, you know, you have these big baseball fields in a neighborhood that’s not really baseball oriented. So, I don’t know if any conversation was ever conducted with the residents to figure out if you have a park environment, what kinds of things would you like to see here? What kinds of things would cater to you and your needs? We had at one point a softball game that we did with the kids. And the kids--the children enjoyed it, but we were not staffed at Overtown in partnerships to conduct Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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softball games. So this ends up being an every-now-and-then kind of event. And then the park staff that is there, when they are there, they have so many kids. You know, you have may--you have one, I think there was one park worker at Dorsey. You know, and you have so many kids that you’re trying to do things with. That’s quite a big number of kids to try to manage. There might have been one or two at Williams Park. I think it increases in the summer when--when the pool is open. Gibson has maybe one or two people as well. And at Gibson Park they have a gym, and there were--. People could come and work out. And there’s also a library at Gibson Park. So you would think that--. I guess--. And the population of Overtown continues to decrease as well, but you would think that with about ten thousand people and a 1.2 square mile area, that you would have much more activity in the park. You see more kids, for whatever reason, playing in the street or in the--in the courtyards of their apartment complexes than you do in the parks.
AR: Do think that it’s a personal--the kids’ choice? Or parents’ choice?
SB: I think a lot of it might be parents’ choice. I mean, with a park that might be understaffed, you--you would have to be concerned about the safety of the child.
AR: Even during prime hours?
SB: Yeah, you would have to be concerned about the safety.
AR: What about--. We mentioned the drugs and drinking and homeless, those problems. What kind of youth gangs? The--.
SB: Not in Overtown.
AR: Not in Overtown?
SB: There’s not a gang situation in Overtown. You may have had clusters of guys that kind of just hung out on a corner. But, you know, those were just ( ); they were not gang incidents. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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AR: Where would you--. Where would you say those activities are actually--they’re focused citywide? Where would be more--? Where would you think people are more prevalent than--?
SB: You have gangs in Little Havana. Even--you had a couple of gangs here in Liberty City. You have gangs in Hialeah. There were a couple of gangs in Opa Locka.
AR: What about in the suburban neighborhoods? Are they even--? I’m just kind of throwing that out there--but, would you say that they are more or less ( ) that sort of activity?
SB: I’m--I’m sure they might have a couple of kids who are in them, but in terms of being very prevalent, no.
AR: So not. Okay, interesting. I was going to ask you--. ( ). I was going to ask you to name some of the major parks there, but I think you already mentioned most of them, or many of them anyway. Gibson Park, Range Park, Williams Park, Dorsey Park. Are there any other major ones that have been--that you haven’t mentioned yet?
SB: No. I don’t know--.
AR: Those are pretty much it.
SB: And the ones that are primarily used are Dorsey, Williams, and Gibson. Some of the public housing projects have little parks within them, and then they might have playground equipment there. They have one of those at Rainbow--Rainbow Development, which is up around Twentieth Street. And then they have one--I can’t remember the name of the development right now--but there is one on Fourth Avenue and about Tenth Street, which was done, I think, by Frito-Lay, where they came in and put in playground equipment for that particular housing development. I think it’s got--I can’t think of it now--that particular housing development. So within Overtown, at the time that we were there, there were 740 public housing units. And so within those--those major developments, you have smaller parks. There are a couple of little Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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small parks in the Town Park Village area, which is co-op housing. So they have some playground equipment within their developments.
AR: One issue that we talked about a little bit, but not a lot in terms of specific purposes is policing. We talked about the safety issue. And how sensitive do you think policing is to that district? And do you think there should there be more of it in--specifically in parks, if not in the neighborhood in general, or less of it? And what do you think of the quality of it as well?
SB: Well, in fact, that was one of the issues that should of--that came out of a discussion, focus group discussions with the residents. They thought that there should be more walking police presence. That most of the police presence was riding by. And that most times, police were riding by with their windows up, so they wouldn’t have a clue as to what was going on. And then there were many people who thought that the police were not their friends, and they really felt them as adversaries. There were a few people who--who felt that they had reported crime issues in the past, and one of two things happened: either somehow they believed the police had let out that they were the people who called, and so long after the police were gone they were harassed by these people who were doing very negative things; or the police didn’t respond. There was one occasion where a woman said, “I called you guys when they were--.” They had stolen a car from some other place, and brought it to this particular development, and was taking the car apart. And the woman said, “I was on the phone with you, letting you guys know that they were taking the car apart. And, you know, you guys didn’t come till two days later.” By that time the whole car had been stripped and the only thing left was the shell. So she--you know, the residents--. We had meetings with the police and residents. And the residents were saying, “We don’t see the point of calling. You know, you don’t come.” One resident said, “I told you when they were doing all these smash-and-grabs that there was a unit, a vacant unit in my building where they take all of the purses.” And she said, “I can show you where they are. There are a bunch of purses in there right now. But nobody will come.” I think the relationship is cooling. The--the city has started to be really effective with their neighborhood policing. So some residents are starting to build relationships with the officers, and a few of the officers now understand that their role has to be more than just strictly policing. They’ve gotten concerned about housing and housing conditions. And so I think long-term it could improve; it could be a Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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whole lot better. And there are some officers who genuinely want to be there. And then there--there are some others who see it as punishment. Now whether or not they’re going into the parks, I can’t say that that is occurring. In conversations with them, they said that many times because of the staffing issue that from the time that they check in and they are on duty, that they’re running from one call to another call to another call. And so to think that I’m just going to ride by and just check on the park, or you know, ride by and just, you know, see what’s going on is not possible, and that they would need some additional staffing, or they would have to be on special assignment to do it. Because officers in Overtown patrol an area a little bit larger than Overtown. At one point, they had a set of officers that were called “beat officers,” that were assigned to Overtown, and they only did Overtown. And then there were another group that was assigned to I guess that--that sector that was a little bit larger than Overtown. And then from time to time, because the beat officers were only supposed to be in Overtown and the sector officers got really swamped. The beat officers then had to also take calls. So when you--when you started to talk about--. “I’m doing--.” You know, they would give a list: “I’m doing this and this and this! You know, clearly I don’t have time to go and see what’s going on in the park.” They weren’t--. They weren’t necessarily interested in doing walking patrols. One officer specifically said, “It’s too hot.”
AR: It’s too hot?
SB: Yes, “We have on these vests and these dark uniforms, and it is too hot to get out of the car and walk around.” [pause] And that was said during a community meeting, so--.
AR: [laughing] How was the reaction to that?
SB: Oh, they were hostile. They were very hostile.
AR: [laughing] Oh gosh, I’m sure they were. Here’s something that I’ve been sort of curious about--.
SB: Uh-huh. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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AR: --is you get the sense sometimes, when I’m talking to people that there are, within black enclaves in Miami, there are ethnic tensions between, let’s say Caribbean, black Caribbean and African-Americans, resident African-Americans. How--how intense would you say that division is? And how do you think it progressed, say, from the time, throughout the time that you’ve been in the community, or working in the community? Is it getting better? Is it getting worse? And why?
SB: There was some tension. Largely in the Overtown area it’s primarily African American. There--there is a very small group of Caribbean-Americans that have moved in on--maybe--maybe that’s First or Second--no First Avenue near--between Seventeenth Street and Twentieth Street in some housing that was part of a home--another home ownership project. And that group of people do not necessarily congregate with the bigger African-American community. So in terms of there being tension, I don’t think in that particular place there is. They’re just being ignored. There have been some African-Americans who believe that Caribbean-Americans look down on the African-American community. They believe that African-Americans have been here long enough to be better economically suited than where they are, that they should be more advanced than where they are. And the African-American community believes that the Caribbean community is not sensitive to the prejudices that we’ve had to overcome to get to where we are right now. And so, there is clearly a lack of understanding of culture, I believe, that causes the biggest part of the tension. And clearly we have to recognize that they are very different cultures. The Haitian community culture is far different from the Jamaican community culture, and all of them are far different from the African-American community culture, that brings with it a lot of baggage that many African-Americans aren’t willing to release.
AR: Could you be specific on the baggage?
SB: A lot of the prejudices that have--have existed throughout the years--we’re not able to overcome those, and we still tend to see things in light of what has happened. And folks always-- In fact, when I talk to older African-Americans--I worked with a historic project in the Grove and I interviewed an older white woman from the, I think, Peacock family. And all during the Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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interview she kept saying, the coloreds this and the coloreds that. And I was with Miss Ombrister who was a historian in Coconut Grove. And the whole time she kept, like, touching me and saying, “Let it go, let it go. That’s how they refer to us.” And I kept saying to her, “But at some point, she needs to be educated to understand we--we don’t refer to ourselves as colored anymore.” And--. “No, let them have that, let them have that.” And so after the interview, she did an education on me on some things we have to accept. But when you have someone that’s coming in from a totally different culture, who has not a clue what that word alone means to you and what you have to overcome to get to this point, then they--they then dump a layer of prejudice about where you should be, versus where you are, and then all of the criticism that goes along with it. That, along with the fact that there are many African-Americans who believe that folks who come from other countries get preferential treatment.
AR: Even amongst the blacks from other countries?
SB: Yes.
AR: ( ).
[SIDE 2 ENDS]
Tape# 2
[START OF SIDE 1]
Aldo Regalado: This is Aldo Regalado continuing the June 18, 1999, interview with Mrs. Sabrina Baker-Bouie at her TACOLCY office. The time is 10:29, and we are beginning side one of tape two. Okay. So I had just asked you if these perceptions were well-founded.
Sabrina Baker-Bouie: I would say, in my personal experience, no. I do believe that there are some prejudices that exist. [pause] But I don’t--I don’t believe it’s because of preferential treatment to one group over another. I think that a lot of--a lot of the prejudices, though, are--can be diminished if some of the government institutions stop promoting some of this. For example, when I worked with the City of Miami, if we wanted to do a project in Overtown, just based on the fact that Overtown needed the project, we had to--we had to figure out what we could do in Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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Little Havana. And so, in order to really sell the implementation of a project in Overtown, you had to make sure you packaged it with a little--a project in--a similar project in--in Little Havana. I don’t think that’s necessary. You know, I think that each neighborhood needs to be able to stand on its own, based on its own needs. And because you’re doing something in the black community, you don’t necessarily have to do the same project in the--in the Hispanic community, unless the Hispanic community needs that same project. So a lot of this is from--is--is generated because of the attitudes of folks in government. And the hostility continues to breed. And there are people in Overtown right now, if you talk to them about their neighborhood, they will always say to you, “It doesn’t happen in Little Havana. They wouldn’t let this happen in Little Havana.” That is always the comparison that they use. And so it breeds some unnecessary hostility between the Hispanic community and the African-American community, and not based on anything that these residents in these communities are doing, but based on the fact that, you know, if I’m going to spend a dollar here, I have to spend a dollar over there. Now your community may need ten dollars, but I’d rather give five over here and five over here. Why not spend the ten and at least get this community to a point where it is stable and--and then move forward. But to say, “I had ten dollars to spend over your neighborhood but I had to split it between Little Havana because I don’t want to make Little Havana mad, although I know you need the ten,” it breeds some unnecessary hostility.
AR: And would you say that--the way you talked about it sounds like the government’s the third party, in terms of the kind trying to balance, not make one community upset over the other. But would you say there are some political interests? That the motivation’s not just angering one community over the other, but that a lot of politicians actually have an interest in--. Say there are politicians who represent Little Havana who push raising over--. So in some sense--in some sense, it’s not so much a third party, but it’s also just in terms of the political bal--actual political balance in ( )--.
SB: It’s a combination--.
AR: That asserts power over--.
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SB: It’s a combination. There--. There--. I have been at commission meetings, though, where we have taken a project for Overtown, and a commissioner representing that area would say, “Well, what are you going to do about Overtown--about Little Havana?” And that project wasn’t even being brought to them about Little Havana. But because that politician is interested and very aggressive about Little Havana, he is going to--you can--you can just, you know, bet your life on it that he is going to say, “What about Little Havana?” And so when I worked for the city, we would go into those meetings already knowing we were going to have to give up something for Little Havana. The same thing didn’t always occur in the black Grove, you know. And didn’t always occur in Alapata. And they had commissioners who were concerned about those areas, but it wasn’t necessarily, you know, “If you’re going to do this project in the black Grove, what are you going to do about Little Havana.” But it was--it was pretty much very consistent. “If you’re going to do this in Overtown, what you going to do in Little Havana.” And I--I never could quite understand--. You know, I know they’re close in terms of proximity. But I never could understand why it was such an issue. And other neighborhoods clearly got left out altogether, you know. Alapata was not a neighborhood that received a whole lot of attention, and Wynwood was not a neighborhood that received a whole lot of attention. So, you know, you created some--some battlegrounds for folks. And then, it didn’t help with, you know, the--the last riot being caused by a Hispanic officer, you know, who wasn’t even assigned to Overtown. You know, so it was--. The hostility as it relates to ethnic groups is more African-Americans and Hispanics than it is African-Americans and Caribbean-Americans. Caribbean-Americans are primarily just ignored. But there are--there are some true battle lines between the Hispanic and African-American communities. And I--I think we can overcome those.
AR: What would be ways of overcoming those, do you think?
SB: I think there are opportunities to do joint activities. Language is a big--big barrier, though, between those two communities. I think a lot of it can be done with activities around children. Children tend to be very neutral grounds. And many of the children from both of these communities now--. For example, Douglas Elementary School goes from K through three, and then the children from Overtown are bussed to Riverside, which is in Little Havana, while the children from that part of Little Havana are bussed to Overtown for K through three. So there’s Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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already some exchange going on already among the kids, and the kids are not seeing it be as much of a problem as the adults. You know, they’re able to interact and do activities and joint projects. It’s just when you add the adults to the whole scenario that you--you get the big problem. [laughing]
AR: [laughing] Right.
SB: We tend to pollute things a little bit.
AR: I have at least one more question about ethnicity.
SB: Okay.
AR: Recently, the face of Little Havana has been changing. It’s not just Cubans now, but increasingly Nicaraguans, Colombians, Guatemalans, et cetera. Do you--. From the perspective of the black community, do you perceive that, do you think the black community perceives these changes, or is it all considered basically as Hispanic--?
SB: Uh-huh.
AR: --you know?
SB: The black community primarily goes by the language, not--not by the country. And in fact, if you’re speaking the language, regardless of where you’re coming from, they consider you to be Cuban. And for a very, very long time, even with the Puerto Rican community, you know, it’s--it’s Cuban. And so, there--in fact, there are very few African-Americans that will say Hispanic. It’s not a well-used word among the African-American community. Primarily, you would hear them use the word Cuban, and it doesn’t matter where.
AR: [laughing] Yeah.
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SB: So, I wouldn’t even tell you that they have not noticed that Little Havana has changed. As far as the African-American community is concerned, that still is Little Havana and it is still Cuban.
AR: Here’s another question that relates to ethnicity. When you talk about, sort of, a resentment in the black community for--for things that have happened in Little Havana, would you rec--would you--or with Little Havana, or done by Cubans--would you say the attitude in Little Havana is the same kind of resentment? Or would you say it’s--it’s primarily one of almost like just steamrolling over and ignoring the--the issues of African Americans? The same kind of--the same kind of negative perceptions that we talked about with say, Caribbean blacks who kind of just sort of have this--make these judgements on where African Americans should be. What would you say the Cuban community’s attitudes are towards Overtown and other--the rest of the black community in Miami?
SB: I’d say that the bulk of the community doesn’t care. I think they might be aware that these communities exist, but it’s like we have our own situation here. It’s, “We have our own problems, you have your own problems.” Now, there--there--. The park, when it’s used on weekends for baseball, that’s--those are Hispanic groups that come into Overtown.
AR: Which park? In Gibson Park?
SB: In Gibson Park.
AR: Is there any--?
SB: And Douglas Park. No.
AR: In Douglas Park? And there’s no mixing? So the--.
SB: Not Douglas. There’s Gibson, and, yeah. Yeah. There’s no mixing.
AR: So--so, you know, the Cubans come in and they--they have their--. But there’s no mixing. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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SB: No.
AR: Do you think there could be, at these parks? Or do you think the cultural differences are just so great that--?
SB: I think there could be. I think if there was a real interest to really share the game, maybe someone willing to volunteer to work with a group of kids or--or to kind of introduce the game of baseball to the community, and then put together some real healthy competition, that there could be. Right now, the people of Overtown see it as, “They come here, they use our park, and then they leave.” And that’s--that’s the only thing I’ve ever heard it described as. And at one point-- It gets to be a problem if, say someone from Overtown wants to use the park on that same day, and they’re told that somebody else has already signed up for the park. Then you have an issue of, “How can they come and use our park? They don’t live in this neighborhood. We live in this neighborhood. We can’t even use our park.” You get a little bit of hostility there. Now what the folks in Overtown need to understand is there’s a process of signing up for the park. You know, these--this group, who wanted to play baseball, signed up for the park a long time ago. And in many cases, they have already signed up now, you know, for the next season of the dates that they want to play. And what the people in Overtown were saying, “It don’t matter. If it’s our park, it’s in our neighborhood, it’s for our residents. Why can’t they use the park in their own neighborhood?” And then you get, “If it was us, trying to go to Little Havana to use the park, we couldn’t use the park.” You know, and so you always get that extra little twist at the end of, “If it was us, we couldn’t do this. If it was us, we couldn’t--.”
AR: Do you think that’s true? Do you think--. Do you think that it would be harder for--for blacks from Overtown going to Little Havana to use the parks?
SB: Probably, just because of their own feelings of not feeling comfortable with their own neighbors.
AR: Not--not any institutional prejudice necessarily?
Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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SB: I have noticed, though, and I can’t explain why--. When I worked with the city, we did the--the police stations, and there was supposed to be a police station in Liberty City. Of course, we have to have one in Little Havana. And the Little Havana one was finished first. There was in--in Overtown, two health clinics that were done. One was in Little Havana, one was in Overtown. The one in Little Havana was finished first. I--I don’t know why. I’m sure it was not because of any intent to finish the one in the Hispanic community first. But when there’s no explanation, then it feeds into the hostility that is already there and you get, you know, “Why is everything finished first in the Hispanic neighborhood and, you know, months and months and months delayed in the black neighborhood?” And like I said, I have no answers as to--. And I worked on those--on those projects. I just have no answer as to why it is that way. And we have residents who--who are not really committed to the process either. One of the things that we try to do with the Overtown Neighborhood Partnerships program is to have people understand the process. If you go from introducing a concept, and you don’t involve folks anymore until now you have the thing completed, they don’t understand all of the obstacles that you have to go through from concept to implementation of the finished product. There’s a whole bunch of stuff in between. And so we really wanted residents to understand that this is not easy. You know, they feel they’ve just been left out of the process, but it’s not an easy process. And from where you sit, it looks that way. You know, if I see you here and then I complain about, “Nothing’s going on, nothing’s going on, nothing’s going on,” not knowing all of the hoops that you’re having to jump through to make this thing happen, and then the next thing I know, it’s underway or it’s completed, then I don’t know what happened in between.
AR: Why do you think--. Why do you think this--this lack of awareness of the process exists in--?
SB: It doesn’t exist like in all neighborhoods, but a lot in low-income neighborhoods, because people tend to feel that they won’t understand.
AR: So they don’t bother explaining anything to them, right?
Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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SB: It’s complicated. And when you try to break it down and explain it’s a complicated thing, they’re not going to understand it anyway. Or, you know, you don’t want the hassle, or the inconvenience. And then you--you’re able to justify that position when you go to community meetings and you expect thirty people and maybe one and two people show up. And then you say everybody’s disinterested, and you have, you know, the evidence to validate it. But what I’ve--I’ve learned working in Overtown, that pretty much you have to go where the people are, that there’s a big distrust of outsiders. When we started the process, we started to try to put together all of the different planning studies that had come out. There’d been like thirteen of them. And so I thought to myself, irrespective of where I lived, if there had been thirteen planning studies for my neighborhood, I’d be a little disenchanted too. You know, if--if thirteen planning studies and--and I can’t see the plan nowhere around, I would have a problem with that. So it’s not so much that they don’t care. But you have to--you have to really put yourself in people’s shoes and figure out if all of these same scenarios have gone on in your neighborhood, you know, where you have an expressway where you uprooted people; and you voiced your opposition and it happened anyway; and then you have a Metrorail system that you fought and it happened anyway; then you add to that the thirteen planning studies and the fact that you can’t get the garbage picked up; and then there’re overgrown lots where children--one child stepped on a needle in one of those overgrown lots, and another child was raped in one because the grass was too high. You add all of that to your scenario, and then try to figure out how you would feel about it, and I think most people would come up with some very similar feelings. You know, why go to another meeting? What--What will it serve? What is different about this meeting than the meeting we went to five years ago? And that’s what you--what you have. And so you have me, who might not have been there five years ago, and I’m coming out to the meetings, and I’m trying to present. I’ve got all of my maps and I have two people, but they’re not interested. And that’s--that’s my conclusion from this. And it’s not so much that I’m not interested, it’s just really I’ve had enough. Do something first, and then I’ll come around. We’re not using our real human thinking skills when we do some of these things. ( ).
AR: And that’s so true. I mean, you see that--you see that in other--in work environments, too, and it’s just sad to say, and when you don’t, and you don’t see response. It’s funny, but you know, it’s not funny. But it’s interesting and tragic when you see the same type of relationship Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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happen in the community, about the community. And a lot of it’s probably harder for people to realize that that’s why.
SB: Right. You know, I went into a woman’s apartment once in Overtown. She had come across the street and she said, “Somebody has to help. I called every place, and somebody has to help. I want you to come and see this.” I go over to her apartment. She stayed on the second floor in her building right across the street from where I worked. And when I walked into her building and into her apartment, her carpet was soaking wet. Literally, my feet were, like, squish, squish. I thought, “Your carpet is wet.” She said, “That’s what I want you to see.” And she said, “Touch the walls.” And I touched the walls and the walls were, like, wet. And there were--. She had all of her furniture sitting up on top of cinder blocks and everything was covered in plastic. And then there was a baby laying on the sofa. And I said to her, “You know, that baby’s going to get sick because there’s so much mold in here.” And I have had a problem with asthma--asthma as a child, and I could feel my--my lungs tightening from the mold. She said, “The baby has asthma. We have to keep him on a respirator.” And she said, “We’ve been trying to find someplace else to live.” And it was an apartment building that had been renovated with city funds. And she--she touched her cabinet, and it came off from the wall. I said, “We need to call the code inspectors, because this can’t go on this way.” She said, “I’ve--I’ve called them. They were already out here.” I said, “Well we--.” And everything I said in terms of, “We got to call here.” And she said, “They’ve already been here, these people.” And I kept thinking how--how can--how this be like this? And you know, it wasn’t like, you know, maybe you had a leak in your ceiling. I’m talking about from the front door all the way to the back door. I said, “Is it the toilet running over? Is it the plumbing?” She said, “It’s something from the roof.” She said, “You should go up to the third floor. They get it first, and then we get it, and then the first floor gets it.” So the first floor wasn’t as bad, because, you know the other units had taken the brunt of the water. But I thought, you know--. I had no explanation to the woman. And when I went across the street, I was so depressed and--and I was thinking, what more could we expect from her?
AR: And you thought this?
Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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SB: Yeah.
AR: You went through all of the channels?
SB: All of the channels. I ended up calling and saying, “Why ( )?” And they said, “Well, we have no place to put the people now.” And I said, “She’s got a baby sick.” So at that point I started to really think about how our environment impacts so many aspects of our life. Overtown has high absenteeism in the schools. And a lot of the reason is the kids have respiratory problems, where if you’re living in a housing unit that is filled with mold, you’re going to have a respiratory problem. We started to work with Dunbar Elementary to get--and Miami-Dade Community College--to get a nebulizer machine made, so that regardless if the kids weren’t feeling well, they could bring their medication and get on the machine. And they had a program through the American Lung Association that would deal with education. So we tried to match those programs with the schools. But prior to this time, all the schools were doing were being written by the superintendent for poor attendance. You can’t just operate in isolation is what I’m trying to say. You know, everything feeds off of everything else. And if you have a housing situation that is not a safe and sanitary situation, then you’re not going to be able to put--just put children in schools and have them to operate at a level that you would have in Coral Gables, when the conditions in the neighborhood are not the same. So then, your--your school, your children are--are not at a level where they should be. And then you have the dropout. And then you have the “this,” and then you have the--. But everything makes that some very common factors. And those factors, we’re not dealing with them. We’re not dealing with them. So you can have all the open spaces you want--very beautiful open spaces. But you still have to deal with some very basic human needs in order to get kids to feel comfortable to go to those open spaces. And when you get them to the open spaces, you’re going to have to have something for them to do. You’re going to have to have equipment if you want them to play. You’re going to have people to show them how to play with the equipment. Otherwise, yeah, they’re going to break it. You know, we have--. We’re in a park here. Without the proper instructions, they will tear up everything we have. But once we start to say, “This is how you utilize this particular toy,” or, “We expect for you to bring the ball back and not take it home because you don’t have a ball at home. But we need to have the ball back here if you’re going to play with it tomorrow.” Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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So, you know, we can’t just write everything off of, you know, poor people are just nasty, you know, people who don’t care. You know, a child is a child. My child, you know, if he had no toys or anything to play with, and he came to your house and you have, he’d probably want to take one of yours home. You know, and my child is not living in a low-income neighborhood. But that’s just the fact that “I like this. I don’t have this at my house. Can I take it home?” But, it’s no different from--from many of the things that we do in our own lives.
AR: Do you--. Do you see any hope, in terms of addressing these issues? Anything that’s being done now, in terms of building this infrastructure? What’s the best hope? Or do we have one?
SB: I just prefer to be optimistic. I just prefer to believe that the conditions can’t stay this way. I’ve had an Overtown resident recently tell me that they plan on suing the city and the county. And they wanted to know how could it be done, because they believed that the city and the county [were] was responsible for the conditions of the neighborhood. So I tend to believe that people are--are getting to the point where they’ve had enough. I’ve watched the Overtown Optimists go from being a thought to a thriving entity with a booster club. I mean, when they first started out, there was a-- And Hammond Noriega is another person. He works for--. Hammond Noriega works for the CRA. He’s over--. His office is in the Dupont Plaza. This started out with him initially saying he wanted to teach soccer to some kids. And he worked with a few of the men when they came up with, “We’re going to do this Optimist thing,” with very, very few funds. They one year got some funds from the city, but because of inexperience, there was not a whole lot of accountability. Not because anybody was stealing any money. They just didn’t know what to do. So it’s come from being that kind of organization to a situation where the parks are packed during the football season with people rooting for the Overtown team. And prior to them being there, kids from Overtown would catch the bus to Miami Beach to play--to play in their Optimist League. And if you can imagine these same kids catching the bus back after practice, getting home very late at night, tired, dirty, because they wanted to play. Now they play in their own neighborhood. So, it’s gone from--from nothing to something because some people have said, “Enough. We’re going to do this and we’re going to do it in our neighborhood.” So I believe it will happen. I--I believe that the government will tend to respond to people. I don’t think that the government will be the driving force behind it. I Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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think some folks are going to dig in their heels and say, “We’re not going to tolerate this anymore.” A few residents have been real boisterous up in their office about lighting. In fact, Norma, who I told you about speaking to, is one of those who said, “I know now that you have a responsibility. I know now that there’s a difference between the county streets and the state streets. And I need to talk to the county about this street and the state about that street. You know, I know now.” And I believe that once we get to more of, “I know you have a responsibility to maintain my unit. I know now.” Things will change. I’m real optimistic about it.
AR: And you’ve seen--? You’ve actually seen--?
SB: I’ve seen it.
AR: That’s great.
SB: I’ve seen it.
AR: You know, I’ve read here and there that ( ) the media gives( ) there’s an article here saying that--that Overtown is starting to ( ) there’s never sincereness about it. You know, there’s a web page that you can go to. And you click on the one for Little Havana and it’s pretty big. And then you go into the Overtown one and it’s just a paragraph, and it just says that, a great history, ( ), and it’s on it’s way up. But there’s no, you know--.
SB: [laughing]
AR: You know, there’s nothing more there.
SB: Yeah.
AR: So--.
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SB: Even the Overtown shopping center has gone from being just a grocery store. So now it has a grocery store, it has a beauty salon, a laundry-mat, a bank, a net office is located there, and something else, so it’s--it’s thriving. First of all, nobody else has got a bank open. And you know, and at the time with public banks there, we believe they can make it there. And they’ve been there for a number of years now. And they said to everybody that they were going to close down after the first year. They’re still there. So, you see some change. And then once--. You know, once people start to work in Overtown, they tend to see things differently. Some things are still a tad bit unbelievable, because--.
AR: Like, um--.
SB: When I go in some of these units, you would think that maybe you were in some Third World country. They clearly--. And they--. Code restrictions, code enforcement, that this would not occur--that this would not. And then you go there and it’s like, well how can this be? How did it happen? You know, and then how is it still happening? Yeah, I’ve gone in some of these grocery--these little corner grocery stores. I went in to buy once, we. You know, I said, I’m going to support the corner grocery store. We’re going to have an event in Overtown, so we needed some salad dressing. Well, the salad dressing was outdated by three years. And I’m saying, where is the regulatory aide that does the spot check to come in and say, you know, your salad dressing is three years old? Yeah. Then I went into the big grocery store. They sell you one pound. Why do you sell one pound? You can’t buy one pound for anywhere else. You know, why would you—one pound for fifty cents. What can you do with one pound for fifty cents. And then why would you even buy into that? And there literally was a band with one pound. Now there’s some stores you can go in and you can buy one cigarette. That’s illegal. So how do they continue to have them that way? You know, but it’s--it’s that kind of thing that goes on in Overtown that makes you feel, I’m not even in America any more. I can’t be. There are regulations against this kind of stuff. And you can call it naiveness or, you know, whatever, but the rules have got to be applied equally, you know. Clearly some people would be displaced if they really did code enforcement, because many of those apartment units would be closed. There was one apartment building that, various times during the year, raw sewage would back up--. [Tape cuts off] Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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[END OF SIDE 1]
[START OF SIDE 2]
AR: This is Aldo Regalado continuing the June 18, 1999, interview with Mrs. Sabrina Baker-Bouie at her TACOLCY office. The time is 11:01, and we are beginning side two of tape two. And, so go ahead.
SB: The owner told them that it had to do with the pumping station. That from time to time the county would close the valves on the pumping station, and that’s why the sewage backed up into their--their units. So as I was talking to this woman and she was giving this explanation, I said to her, “Clearly the county would not do that because they know it would create an unsanitary health condition for you. That has nothing to do with the pumping station.” She’s like, “It doesn’t?” “No, it doesn’t. This has to do with this building right here, because the pumping station, if that was the case, it would affect the whole, you know, region from--from the point that the sewage goes out to Virginia Key back, and everybody would have that problem.” So, it’s that kind of knowledge that--that it’s just not there, and not knowing where to go for help, or what to say, or what to do. And it is advantageous for some people to keep people with a lack of knowledge.
AR: It almost sounds like that’s the type of thing that should be taught in schools over some other stuff--.
SB: Yeah.
AR: You know, the process, the way--.
SB: It should be. It really should be. We’re starting to do it here at this center, having children understand the process. We--. You know, even with my experience in Overtown, it just dawned on me, we need to do that here. We need to start with the little ones. Let’s talk about responsibilities. Let’s talk about planning. Let’s talk about respect for property. Yeah, we’re Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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starting now, but it needs to be done on much larger scale than what we’re doing here. And just the whole session on rights, so that the kids can go home and say, “Mama, you know, we’re not supposed to have that stuff in our bathtub. Mama, you know, we can call this number because the building is not supposed to have all of these roaches in it.” I went into one apartment building that--I didn’t realize for a while, like, what all this stuff on the walls? It was--. The place was filled with roaches, and they were crawling all over the walls. And I thought, “That’s not supposed to be here.” She said, “Well we set off a bomb.” I said, “Well, how you get this many roaches back here even with the--with, you know--with the--with the Raid, the bomb?” She said, “Well what happens when you set off the bomb, you kill a few of them and then they come back, because the other people.” And I said, “You either buy everybody a bomb and ya’ll set off the bomb at the same time. You all can’t be in here.” You know, you can’t sleep in this kind of place with all these roaches crawling all over you at night. And then, there are many units over there with no refrigerator, no stove. There was an article done a few years back, where the bulk of the apartment buildings over there, they don’t come with appliances. So imagine you already with a low income. Now where’re you going to buy a stove from? So, a lot of families cook on--on hot-plates. Now, would you think that you were in the big city of Miami, and you’re seeing people out on the little patio, cooking on a hot-plate? I don’t think so. So, that’s what I mean by you get the feeling that sometimes that you’re really in a Third World country.
AR: Okay. Well, I guess, since were on the last half of--the last quarter of--.
SB: [laughing] Of the tape?
AR: Of the tape that I have. I should ask you a couple of questions about other types of public spaces.
SB: Okay.
AR: And, I don’t know how much you’ll have to say. But let’s say--. We were talking about parks. Let’s go to schools, I guess. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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SB: Okay.
AR: Schools and how--how they function in terms of--in Overtown--in terms of programs, in terms of activities, in terms of making the kids aware of the community. Where is that, right now, would you say?
SB: I think it depends upon the school. There are some schools in Overtown that are much more aggressive than others, largely because of the principal and the push that the principal makes.
AR: Which are some of ( )?
SB: Phyllis Wheatly used to be for a while. That Diane Pascal, who became Principal of the Year. And I said to her, “While I’m happy that you got this award, I’m really hate that you got this award, because I believe they will move you.” And she said, “No they’re not going to move me.” And, yeah, they moved her.
AR: To where?
SB: For the first year, they moved her downtown to a School Board office. And then they moved her out to this new school that’s doing the Edison Project, somewhere, Reeves Elementary or something.
AR: Is it a higher income location? Or is it also a needy school? Or ( )? I mean, did they moved her to a perceived better area? Or did they--?
SB: Initially they moved her to a perceived better area, because she was down at the main offices doing an assignment. And then they moved her to an area that is slightly better than--might have been a few steps above better than Overtown. But at that time she--she had some really great workers. That’s why I checked on that Connie McKinney who works very closely with people in the Overtown neighborhood. There would--give you a whole host--you would Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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have too many people to interview. But she had a wonderful staff that was always out in the community, always talking about programs and activities. And you had the same thing at Dunbar, where Miss--I think her--Minnie--Minnie McNeil I believe her name was, who pushed the staff. Now, both of those principals are gone. And whether the new ones have got--. I understand that Phyllis Wheatley’s new one has the same level of aggressiveness about her. I’m not sure that happens in--in Dunbar. The problem with Douglas is the bussing situation. Bussing causes some--some disunity. Maybe I’m creating a word, but the cohesiveness in terms of it being a--a neighborhood school is not necessarily there for Douglas. And the principal was not as aggressive as--as the others in terms of outreach. Miss Pascal would put on her sneakers and walk the streets, talking to people. She would put on her sneakers and go out if there was a child that had been absent, and go and get that child from home and talk to the mother about why you can’t keep him home. Not every principal’s going to do that. So there are some schools that are more utilized than others.
AR: What sort of programs did she push, aside from outreach, in terms of being in touch of parents, but also in terms of--thinking in terms of field trips or--?
SB: She--she was really pushing environmental kind of projects. She had a community garden--excuse me--at her school, and they had become pals with a school in South Dade that had a community garden. So they did field trips to that school, and then that school was encouraged to come to Phyllis Wheatley. And then they do the usual tourist attraction kinds of field trips. But, she was more into beautification and--and making sure that the children were environmentally instilled. They had a enviro-cops program at that school, so she really wanted to make sure that they were aware of that. And then she wanted to make sure that they were aware of black history. So she promoted a lot of activities that would cause them to understand their history. And not just their history, but she had a quite a few Haitian children at that school, so she did a lot on cultural diversity as well. So it was a combination of programs.
AR: Do you think the schools--even these more dynamic schools--? Do you think they’re restricted in terms of budgetary concerns?
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SB: Oh yeah.
AR: So they could be doing a lot more?
SB: Yeah. They could be. And see the other thing with that school was one Thanksgiving, someone went in and stole all of the computers. Now budget-wise, she had to wait until the next school year came to replace those computers. Well, if you’re in--. When you’re trying to deal with priorities, if you think I purchased the computers this year and then I build on that the next year by purchasing something else, and then keep building, when you’re not building, you’re still replacing. So you’re not advancing, you’re just maintaining. And many of the schools suffer from--from that particular problem. The crack epidemic in Overtown is a very serious epidemic. People will understand their points of education, but when they’re trying to feed a habit, you know, stealing your computer--. They stole the computers, every telephone, the typewriters, everything. And so the schools are not building, you know, they’re replacing.
AR: In that, has there been any--any progress in terms of ( ) gotten worse ( )?
SB: I’m sure it’s gotten worse. Many of those schools are old schools. So when you start to even deal with the security systems, you know, it doesn’t work. And some of the things Miss Pascal wanted to do at the time, in terms of, like, putting a chain on the door and locking, that’s against the code. So, you know, you--. It’s almost like, well, what can you do? You know, the buildings are old buildings. They can’t be--. Yes, it could be suited for an alarm. It just would be very expensive. So what do you do?
AR: [pause] How about ( )?
SB: [laughing]
AR: But, okay. How about--how about--? You mentioned briefly--I think it was Gibson Park that had the library. What about libraries as--as public spaces in Overtown? Are there--Are Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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there enough of them? Are there--Are there a lot of them? And how well are they attended and used?
SB: That library’s very well used. In fact, they, at the time, were doing a lot of activities down there, storytelling there. And primarily it was used in the afternoons by the kids coming in and looking through books. On Saturdays, occasionally they have activities. Puppet shows and--and those kinds of programs. It’s a very small space, so you can’t get a whole bunch of people in there. But, it is very well used.
AR: You know, here’s a question that just popped into my mind. I guess living--living in--people living in a lower-income area might not have a lot of the--the luxuries that--that middle class families have, in terms of television or video games or that sort of thing. Would you say that the kids, then, are more receptive to using places, you know, to finding entertainment in places like libraries that are public, that are there, and you know, and in terms of like, reading competency and stuff? Would you say that--that these kids are ( ) into that now? And why not? What are the obstacles there?
SB: A lot of kids have reading deficiencies. And so although they--they may not have some of the other--
AR: Distractions.
SB: --distractions, you know, they might go in and look--look through a book. But many of the children in Matheson and Overtown and Liberty City as well, have severe reading deficiencies. There’re some cases where you’re two and three grade levels behind. So you may have, you know. Say for example, with it being a small library, if you have twenty or thirty kids in there you would definitely know if you had that many kids in there. I mean, you’d be able to see them all, because it is that small. So you’re not channeling a--a large number of kids there. But the children tend to make other ways of entertaining themselves. They come up with--with games like throwing the bottle. And they just throw bottles at each other, which is dangerous. Or, you Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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know, other little mischievous kinds of games that they come up with to entertain themselves. But not, you know, let’s go to the library and get a book. That’s not it.
AR: Do you think libraries could be doing more to draw kids in? Or do you think it’s a product of the general environment? And if you can talk about the impact the environment has on--on everybody. Why do you think, you know--. Why do you think this reading deficiency is a problem with the schools?
SB: It’s a combination of problems with schools and a problem with homes. Many of the parents have dropped out, and so they’re not able to sit and read with the kids, provide that extra support. And many of the schools are dealing with behavior problems and classroom size. So there’s not a whole lot of time to devote to, you know, just pure reading. And then a lot of it is a lack of interest from the kids. For my son at home, I have to find stuff that he likes to read, which may cost me a bit more money. But my goal is to have him reading, so I have to go out of my way to get the--. He’s outgrown the Goosebumps series and now he’s into something else. So if you want them to read, you have to get stuff that they like to read. Your--your books and materials need to be updated. You cannot have stuff that is outdated on your shelves and expect children to be excited about it. I think the libraries could do a lot more. I think computers would help a lot. Many of the children, in fact, I don’t know of any of the children in Overtown that have computers at home. Now they might have TV’s and VCR’s, but they don’t have a computer at home. So if there was a whole focus on just the computer and what you can do with it, and even a whole thing on the Internet, on how it--it’s a--what do you call it, down--download video games, you know, and have that access. You’re getting them still involved with--with understanding how the computer works. But you’re making it fun and entertaining at the same time. So there--there could be a whole lot more. And then we have to reach the kids to where they are. You know, if we--we want them to read we can--. And they like rap music. Let’s rap the book, you know. Let’s talk them through the book through rapping, you know. And then tell them, challenge them to go and read the book and come back with their own rap song. You know, so it’s the motivation. We cannot--. We’re not going to be able to reach these kids with traditional mechanisms, you know, or traditional values, or “It’s nice to do that, because you will learn.” That--that’s not what happens. Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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AR: [pause] What about other--. Are there any other public spaces that we haven’t talked about that are used by--by the residents of Overtown? Beaches, zoos, community ( ), that stuff, or anything else that I have not--?
SB: One of things that was kind of curious to me is that many of the residents from Overtown have not gone to Bayside or that whole Bayfront Park area. And I made the assumption early on that because it was so close, that, for sure, they had been there. We took a group of kids on a field trip to Bayside and found out that was their first time being there. And at that point I started to ask different people, and they said “No, we really don’t go to Bayside.” And I thought, it’s such a beautiful space there, why not? They didn’t feel welcome. And, we don’t have any money to go, so we don’t go. So a lot of the outside spaces, unless the children have done it with a field trip or you have, you know, a few parents who, like, take the extra time to go to something like a Metro Zoo--. There’s not been a whole lot of exposure to Metro Zoo. There’re not, like, family trips to the beach either. During the summer, they have the pool in the neighborhood, so many of the kids go to the pool. Every now and then you’ll find a family that has gone to Haulover for a picnic, primarily on holidays, not just like for, you know, “It’s Saturday afternoon; let’s go to the beach” kind of activity. So, what I found in working with many of the residents, unless it’s the open spaces within their current environment, there’s not a lot of--of branching out and going other places. Movies is one of the things that was entertaining, but not public open spaces. And then even within the Omni area, there’s a park right behind the Omni. There’s a very nice park right on the water, but it’s not used.
AR: And, so you mentioned the sense of not--inequality being one of issues behind the--. Were there any others ( )?
SB: Transportation.
AR: Transportation?
SB: Transportation is a really big issue. If you’re going to spend money to go somewhere, you need to be influenced on where you need to go. So, I guess the transportation and the money Sabrina Baker-Bouie
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might be linked. It needs to take you right there. And there’s no Metrorail that will take you to the Zoo. And even to go the beach, it’s several buses to go to the beach. And that’s what I assumed with Bayside, which is in walking distance, for sure. And--and that had not occurred. So they’re obstacles to getting to those--those places that people just don’t see as a priority. Then when you--when you start to really evaluate priorities, being in some of these really nice public spaces that have appeared in this county, this is not a priority, in the scheme of things. Saturday is normally wash day, you run your errands day, clean up the house day. And that’s every Saturday. And when you’ve finished, you’re tired. Sunday is normally church day. The whole day is devoted to church and dinner. Then that’s the end of that. Then in the weekday, you’re back to your normal routine of a weekday. So it’s not like we have this extra hobby, you know, time to go and explore, you know, new things to do or learn more about Dade County. It’s--. Most stuff is with a purpose.
AR: This is not really related, but it’s something--. You mentioned church, and when I was talking with ( ) a few days ago, we were talking about a lot of these issues, and he said, the problems ( ). There isn’t as much church--. The church has become--. That it has moved away from being the center of a lot of people’s lives. And I was wondering if you would agree with that statement?
SB: Uh-huh. I would.
AR: And, why so? Why do you think that’s been the case?
SB: A lot of people believe that the church has not been supportive, and the church does not meet their needs. And although Sunday I said was church day, not everybody was going to church. It’s still just church day. It’s the frame of mind, you know. But many people are not in churches. And most of the churches in Overtown are not filled with people from Overtown. Most of the people in those churches come from other neighborhoods to go to church. And most of the ministers will tell you, “My congregation is not made up of residents of Overtown.”
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AR: And--and what would you say that the--the community is looking for the churches to provide that they don’t provide? And why do you think they’re not providing it?
SB: The community’s wanting more outreach, more services that they need: tutorial services in the afternoon; shelter; feeding programs. And--and what they’ve said is, “How’re you going to tell me you’re going to minister to me and you don’t even know what I need?” Many of the ministers say that their congregations, because they’re from outside of the community, are not interested in spending all of their money right there, because they’re not from there. So, some of the churches have moved past that. Like Greater Bethel has moved past that, and they have a lot of outreach ministries. Mt. Zion has moved past that. But many churches in Overtown, after the service, the last service on Sunday, that’s it. They’re closed until Wednesday when they have prayer meeting or choir rehearsal or something. And then they’re open for that, and then they’re closed. So those are not inviting spaces. You know, a couple of the--. St. Agnes is another one that has done some outreach, and St. John’s. Both of them have day cares. So they’re providing a service to the community with--with offering a day care facility. But the bulk of the churches in Overtown are not providing a service to Overtown residents.
AR: [pause] Yeah, that’s um, so--so you mean--. When we mentioned these outreach programs in some of these other churches. Some of the more--. The churches--. You mentioned day care. Any other activities or, yeah, or community ( )?
SB: One has a Head Start. One--two of them have tutorial programs. One has a computer program. Greater Bethel used to serve--and Mt. Zion--meals on the weekends. Greater Bethel, I believe, has a clothing bank for residents. Greater Bethel has an AIDS outreach ministry. St. Agnes has bought a couple apartment buildings that they--they are the managers of, and so they’re big into housing. [pause] So, it varies. It varies.
AR: But--but, yeah, they’re definitely oriented at the physical needs of the community ( ). But would you say that there’s--. You mentioned, I think Bethel, having set up programs. Would you say that there is enough communication between the communities, organizations, schools, churches to make a concerted effort, or--?
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SB: No.
AR: ( ).
SB: No. A lot of the entities or institutions within the community--and much of it might be because of time or an established vehicle for communicating--but they don’t operate outside of their--their institution. And there’s not necessarily mechanisms to connect, you know, what you’re doing at your institution with what I’m doing at my institution, and--and dealing with collaboration. It’s just, “Let me try to survive right here. I’m overwhelmed with what I’m trying to do here, and there’s not much more I can give to include a conversation with you.” We did, at one point, brought all of the community development corporations in Overtown together. And that was the first real conversation that they had had. And I was like, well this is great, we did it over lunch. And we thought, well golly, maybe we could bring the churches together. Maybe we could bring this group. And, you know, you need someone who’s really charged with the communication vehicle to get people to talk and--and get them involved with each other. And there’s not that person or that entity there. So, you know, “I may have learned what you’re doing at your church, because someone from your church stopped by,” or you know, “We saw each other at a meeting.” But there’s no deliberate mechanism for communicating.
AR: Do you think--? [pause] We talked a little--. We talked a lot about the physical ( ) of the community. Do you think that’s the road? Again we’re not talking ( ). They were really talking about a spiritual vacuum that they think exists. Do you think that solving that first physical--that physical need is a priority and a way of starting to address the spiritual vacuum, if indeed such a vacuum exists? Yeah, I guess I’m asking if that’s a priority.
SB: Oh yeah. You’re not going to get the people interested in anything spiritually until you at least address one of the physical needs. Unless they have a crisis. That tends to be one where people start to deal with their spiritual needs is when you’ve had a crisis, and it’s like, “Okay, now I need God.” But if you’re going to really make a difference, you’re going to have to deal with the physical needs. Many people don’t want to deal with it, because the spiritual--the physical needs are great. And if you’re going to get involved with it, you can’t, like, halfway get Sabrina Baker-Bouie
June 18, 1999
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involved with it. You’re either going to do it, or you should really leave the whole thing alone. And many people prefer to leave the whole thing alone, because it can be overwhelming. Some of the stuff is just, like I said to you, it’s unbelievable. So, you just stand there, and you feel helpless. “I have no solution. I have no clue. I need to go.” You know, and then you back to what is safe for you. “Well, if you’re going to try to talk to me about my spiritual growth and development, when I’m trying to figure out how to feed these kids, we can’t talk right now. You know, we really can’t talk.” When we started to go through, and as you read through the book, you know ask folks to establish what their priorities were, I though housing was going to be like, in the top one. And under that, “Give me a job. If you’d just give me a job, I could take care of my housing problem. I don’t want to have anything else but a job.” I thought health care would be like a primary issue. And everything was equated with, “If I can work, I can take care of those other issues. Right now, I just need a job.” And so, employment was like the top priority. Well, when you come into a neighborhood and you don’t have the jobs to offer, really there’s not too much you’re going to be able to talk about. And you know you don’t have the jobs. And you know you’re not going to be able to, you know, pay for this family’s food forever, or put this family in some good housing conditions, or provide clothing for the kids forever. So you just leave the whole thing alone. And you say, “I’m going to pray for you.”
AR: Well, I think we are one second away from ending, so the tape’s about to run out--.
SB: [laughing] Okay.
AR: So thank you so very much.
SB: You’re welcome.
AR: It’s been a wonderful interview.
SB: I really enjoyed it.
AR: [laughing] Okay. [recorder is turned off] [SIDE 2 ENDS]